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    Author Topic: I'm sorry to announce...  (Read 10197 times)

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    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 11:31:27 AM »
    Nobody cares about private servers anymore. Or cheating. Or this game.
    I don't think that's true at all, there are currently almost 120k people playing runescape (oldschool and rs3 combined), which is the most it's been in a very long time.

    Offlinesini

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 11:49:28 AM »
    The amount of effort you put into making a good RS server is about as equivalent to the amount of effort you'd put in making a game. Which is better in the long term?
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:17:11 PM by sini »

    OfflineJustin Bieber

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 12:46:33 PM »
    Everyone has been saying for years that the reason there's no good shit is because the good developers have better stuff to do with their time. The few good devs that do get involved only do it for the short space of time when they're motivated by the game, or when they're making the transition between being a noob and good enough to work on their own shit. Can't blame them for that. Maybe a community server could be successful if we work out how to capitalise on this group of people and accept the fact that every dev will quit after a few months?

    OfflineLin

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #23 on: September 07, 2015, 01:19:29 PM »
    As someone who can strongly relate to sini's experience, I don't blame him for going down the route he chose. Getting your hands dirty with RuneScape emulation is really fun. It's a really tough programming challenge to write a server that holds thousands of players, in addition to writing the tons of systems that go into it, especially the content stage. Then you've got client hacking, and there's something unusually rewarding about creating tools that turn someone else's mysterious data into something you can view and even edit. That was my motive behind writing my cache editor. I also really liked the idea of having people write plugins so instead of having just one person writing a massive editor for tons of different data types, people would be able to pitch in. Unfortunately, as with most RS-based projects, this vision didn't become a reality despite all of the effort I put forth. In fact, I don't think a single person uses my cache editor, but it was a fun project and learning experience. At the end of the day, that's what all RuneScape projects are - fun and for the experience. Unfortunately, almost all of us want something more than that. We all like attention, difficult challenges, constantly growing, feeling like we're a part of something big, and yes, even financial rewards. When writing something like a private server from scratch, or a cache editor, you're in it for the fun and challenge mostly. There is no point to actually writing a server that supports 2000 players because you'll never get even a quarter of that, and so you can't help but feel you're wasting your time.

    The point I'm trying to make is sort of the only real motive behind RS emulation and whatnot is personal interest, and when that's gone, there isn't much to keep you here. The people here pushing for the community server are probably just looking for an excuse to get back into RuneScape without the grind, fee, etc. I know that's why I wanted to see it happen. If everyone wants the official server to get done so badly, then it's going to take a community effort. Tasking one, or even two people with writing an entire server and content system is a huge undertaking. The best option is probably to start with a pre-written base that doesn't handle like garbage and has a scripting system. The server doesn't need to hold even 100 players, but if it ever gets to that point, then you can start looking at other options. Until then, writing a new base over and over, even though it gets better and better, isn't going to get anyone anywhere but the guy behind it away from the project.
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    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #24 on: September 07, 2015, 01:21:59 PM »
    Until then, writing a new base over and over, even though it gets better and better, isn't going to get anyone anywhere but the guy behind it away from the project.
    :rolleyes: He was the one that wanted to write a new base, because he pretty much said the old one "wasnt good enough"; ie: the exact opposite of what you just said

    Offlineasshole_rule

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #25 on: September 07, 2015, 01:41:23 PM »
    It was stupid of all of us to get our hopes up anyway. It was bound to fail if Sini was involved. So much programming knowledge, such little competence. I wonder what is gonna happen when he gets a real job...

    the strongest super saiyan on moparscape

    I'd also like to say that rep abuse is an offense, and one member of this topic has had their rep locked due to it.

    Offlinesini

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #26 on: September 07, 2015, 01:48:16 PM »
    It was stupid of all of us to get our hopes up anyway. It was bound to fail if Sini was involved. So much programming knowledge, such little competence. I wonder what is gonna happen when he gets a real job...

    You don't know what I've done outside of RSPS. That's a really bothering comment. I had a period of where I did robotics and robotics programming, that was largely successful. I do better in team environments.

    Until then, writing a new base over and over, even though it gets better and better, isn't going to get anyone anywhere but the guy behind it away from the project.
    :rolleyes: He was the one that wanted to write a new base, because he pretty much said the old one "wasnt good enough"; ie: the exact opposite of what you just said

    It wasn't. I got far with my implementation. It's far better than yours currently. Just didn't make the cut, the effort moving forward was too great.

    What does it matter though.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 02:06:46 PM by sini »

    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #27 on: September 07, 2015, 02:08:37 PM »
    Until then, writing a new base over and over, even though it gets better and better, isn't going to get anyone anywhere but the guy behind it away from the project.
    :rolleyes: He was the one that wanted to write a new base, because he pretty much said the old one "wasnt good enough"; ie: the exact opposite of what you just said

    It wasn't. I got far with my implementation. It's far better than yours currently. Just didn't make the cut, the effort moving forward was too great.
    See that's where you're wrong, it is good enough for a hosted server. In fact it's better than the majority of hosted servers out there. The problem was that it wasn't good enough for you. Which I can understand as a developer. Nobody thinks the base is perfect, but when the goal is to create a playable server for the community sometimes you have to make the more pragmatic choices.

    Offlinesini

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #28 on: September 07, 2015, 02:15:55 PM »
    Doing that by yourself with the amount of pitfalls and inefficient methods you follow you're just asking for an up hill battle. I think its just futile. Why? We both know no one is going to help you, we both know you don't have the time, and with the amount of time that's required because there are so many John Does trying to set up servers how will it be any different than the 'Mopar' name behind it. If you're still passionate about it, by all means. But I know for a fact you have no, and will not, put as much research into the nuances that me or other people have and I think that's spitting on what could be accomplished. Those efforts are better spent elsewhere. Let nostalgia be nostalgia. Or even better create nostalgia for a new generation of gamers.

    Like the gap between what we can never know and what we need to know is way to great to effectively emulate the new revisions. That ALWAYS was an issue. Do you want to spend a ton of time brute forcing and trying to determine file names from the cache? Do you want to write a CS2 decompiler? Do you want to try and decipher every packet, what it does, why? Do you want to effectively write all the systems to support everything in a simple manner? Do you want to write a persistence layer? Do you want to do the data dumping which takes a lot more time than coming up with your own ideas? Do you want to write a tool chain so you can implement new ideas effectively? Do you want to spend the time trying to efficiently design a way to serve files, host players, login players, keep track of other instances (worlds)?

    No. You don't. I did. So I took my passion to a project where I could work with people I could effectively do that and have it be worth it because the effort I put in with Thornefall directly translates to how successful it is. You want to create a meager feeling to what playing Runescape at that time would have been. Runescape as a game is literally clicking objects most of the time. To train, for hours. Who really enjoys going through that again. Just go do that on OSRS.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 02:22:56 PM by sini »

    OfflineJustin Bieber

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #29 on: September 07, 2015, 02:53:47 PM »
    It was stupid of all of us to get our hopes up anyway. It was bound to fail if Sini was involved. So much programming knowledge, such little competence. I wonder what is gonna happen when he gets a real job...

    You don't know what I've done outside of RSPS. That's a really bothering comment. I had a period of where I did robotics and robotics programming, that was largely successful. I do better in team environments.
    wtf ignore that shit, it's completely normal to work on throwaway projects even if you don't initially intend them to be throwaway. the only reason projects succeed in industry is because they're backed by money and have strong project management, and even that can be a bad thing.

    OfflineFrell

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #30 on: September 07, 2015, 02:55:15 PM »
    So much programming knowledge, such little competence. I wonder what is gonna happen when he gets a real job...
    Horrible comparison, money isn't called the universal lubricant for nothing. In a real environment when the money stops coming your bills stop being paid, and for that reason putting time towards any other project will always be better than reverse engineering/emulating copyrighted software as you can never directly profit from it safely or reliably.

    Once you've exhausted the learning opportunities of private servers there's very little motive to continue in that field, especially with the activity of the scene lately.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 03:04:12 PM by Frell »

    Offlinetickle me elmo

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #31 on: September 07, 2015, 03:01:14 PM »

    OfflineScape-JAVA

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #32 on: September 07, 2015, 03:28:10 PM »
    I don't really think anybody is surprised.

    OfflineRash

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #33 on: September 07, 2015, 04:43:51 PM »
    People getting upset with him should really take a good hard look at themselves.

    He did this to try to help out this dying- no sorry, dead community and when it turns out that he has over committed himself you jump on him like wolves.

    Honestly, just thank him. If you want a server so bad get up and help with it.

    EDIT:

    I just had a look at thornfall, what sini is leaving to. fudge me I would be gone in a heartbeat to help develop something like that.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 04:47:26 PM by Rash »
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    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #34 on: September 07, 2015, 05:04:22 PM »
    So much programming knowledge, such little competence. I wonder what is gonna happen when he gets a real job...
    Horrible comparison, money isn't called the universal lubricant for nothing. In a real environment when the money stops coming your bills stop being paid, and for that reason putting time towards any other project will always be better than reverse engineering/emulating copyrighted software as you can never directly profit from it safely or reliably.
    You think thornefall isn't going to get hit by an IP lawsuit? Watch the preview video...

    @sini - "let nostalgia be nostalgia" ? Maybe don't go develop a runescape remake then, lol. But yes you're right, you wanted to do those things and I didn't. Honestly I don't care that you quit, it was expected, it's just funny when you go back and look at the posts.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 05:06:33 PM by Davidi2 »

    OfflineFrell

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #35 on: September 07, 2015, 05:07:35 PM »
    You think thornefall isn't going to get hit by an IP lawsuit? Watch the preview video...
    Nothing will happen for the same reason McDonalds and Burger King can both co exist. The concept of a burger isn't owned by anyone, the concept of a point and click rpg isn't owned by anyone either. Look at Allods/WoW/Runes of Magic.

    No IP laws are infringed if Taharok is going about this how i'm expecting him to
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 05:10:30 PM by Frell »

    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #36 on: September 07, 2015, 05:11:34 PM »
    You think thornefall isn't going to get hit by an IP lawsuit? Watch the preview video...
    Nothing will happen for the same reason McDonalds and Burger King can both co exist. The concept of a burger isn't owned by anyone, the concept of a point and click rpg isn't owned by anyone either.

    No IP laws are infringed if Taharok is going about this how i'm expecting him to
    None of us are lawyers, but Jagex has a whole team of them. I don't think any of us know the ins and outs of IP law, but there is a lot more in common between the two games than just the fact that they are both RPGs.

    OfflineFrell

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #37 on: September 07, 2015, 05:14:20 PM »
    None of us are lawyers, but Jagex has a whole team of them. I don't think any of us know the ins and outs of IP law, but there is a lot more in common between the two games than just the fact that they are both RPGs.
    The similarities between WoW and Everquest were extremely blatant as well, and look what happened.

    You're forgetting very little of Runescape is actually original. Medieval? Historical. The concept of magic? Been around forever. Tile based movement? DnD. Turn based combat? Dnd again I believe. Other than the lore nothing is original.

    I think you're just not fully grasping what actually categorizes as IP. Ben and Sini's knowledge of Runescapes workings will definitely be a portal for lawsuits, but they would never be successful.

    OfflineDavidi2

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #38 on: September 07, 2015, 05:22:55 PM »
    None of us are lawyers, but Jagex has a whole team of them. I don't think any of us know the ins and outs of IP law, but there is a lot more in common between the two games than just the fact that they are both RPGs.
    The similarities between WoW and Everquest were extremely blatant as well, and look what happened.

    You're forgetting very little of Runescape is actually original. Medieval? Historical. The concept of magic? Been around forever. Tile based movement? DnD. Turn based combat? Dnd again I believe. Other than the lore nothing is original.

    I think you're just not fully grasping what actually categorizes as IP. Ben and Sini's knowledge of Runescapes workings will definitely be a portal for lawsuits, but they would never be successful.
    You can't blatantly copy a games art style and gameplay and think nobody will notice and let it slide. WoW was built from a preexisting art style from the Warcraft games and didn't take that from EQ. I'm not referring to the fact that both games have magic or are medieval or the lore, I'm looking at the screenshots and gameplay video and seeing that you could almost overlay them on top of RS screenshots and a person that hasn't played either (like a judge) might think they are the same game. Hell, even if they changed it to not be tile-based but kept the art style they had right now I'd still say Jagex might try to sue them. Fuck, they can do whatever they want. I just know if I was ever asked to join a project like that I wouldn't for a second assume it was going to be a safe source of income. If I had to guess I'd just say someone got a hardon after seeing your success with Blackwake and can't tell the difference between a unique fun game with a nice niche market and a remake.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 05:29:23 PM by Davidi2 »

    OfflineFrell

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    Re: I'm sorry to announce...
    « Reply #39 on: September 07, 2015, 05:34:56 PM »
    None of us are lawyers, but Jagex has a whole team of them. I don't think any of us know the ins and outs of IP law, but there is a lot more in common between the two games than just the fact that they are both RPGs.
    The similarities between WoW and Everquest were extremely blatant as well, and look what happened.

    You're forgetting very little of Runescape is actually original. Medieval? Historical. The concept of magic? Been around forever. Tile based movement? DnD. Turn based combat? Dnd again I believe. Other than the lore nothing is original.

    I think you're just not fully grasping what actually categorizes as IP. Ben and Sini's knowledge of Runescapes workings will definitely be a portal for lawsuits, but they would never be successful.
    You can't blatantly copy a games art style and gameplay and think nobody will notice and let it slide. WoW was built from a preexisting art style from the Warcraft games and didn't take that from EQ. I'm not referring to the fact that both games have magic or are medieval or the lore, I'm looking at the screenshots and gameplay video and seeing that you could almost overlay them on top of RS screenshots and a person that hasn't played either (like a judge) might think they are the same game. Hell, even if they changed it to not be tile-based but kept the art style they had right now I'd still say Jagex might try to sue them. Fuck, they can do whatever they want. I just know if I was ever asked to join a project like that I wouldn't for a second assume it was going to be a safe source of income. If I had to guess I'd just say someone got a hardon after seeing your success with Blackwake and can't tell the difference between a unique fun game with a nice niche market and a remake.
    Appreciate the compliment thrown in there, but @ the first part:


    I think you're just not fully grasping what actually categorizes as IP.

    WoW:


    Allods


    Hand painting images isn't copyrightable. Boldly coloring objects isn't copyrightable either. In fact, you can't even say it was a stylistic choice for Jagex and instead more of a limitation, as they jumped ship as soon as their engine could handle it.

    It has to be an original idea for you to claim ownership. Being the first to use something that isn't original (alone) in a different context does not make it IP. I believe the line blurs here when unoriginal concepts come together to form something functionally original, but yea. A game doesn't pass for that because many of the concepts are standing alone and aren't derived uniquely enough from the original concept to be IP, such as lore. You can write a book about a school for wizards but you can't call it Harry Potter.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 05:54:16 PM by Frell »

     

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